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Topic : How do I express that a culture has a different standard of beauty? I am aware that there are lots of different ways to do this. I'm being subtle about it thus far. Our standards of beauty - selfpublishingguru.com

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I am aware that there are lots of different ways to do this. I'm being subtle about it thus far. Our standards of beauty are skinny but with an ample bosom here in the US for the most part. The women thought beautiful in the other culture are mainly what we would call overweight. I am not saying that anyone overweight can't be beautiful, I just want to convey that the cultural standard differs from our own, without pointing out that it's weird in any way. It's normal for that culture, and I want to convey this well. Any tips or books (fiction or non) I should be reading? I've just read Pierced by the Sun, and though the MC doesn't follow the standard of beauty for the US, I don't like her.

EDIT: Hey guys, do also include any fiction or non-fiction that I should be reading which might help with this. Fiction is more desirable. I want to see some literary examples. Tips have been great so far!


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Lots of helpful answers here. I'm adding one more as I think the suggestions which accompanied this quote...

The show-don't-tell style that is so popular among aspiring writers today, forces you to do almost all exposition through physical action or naturalistic conversation. It does not work well for this kind of thing because a culture's standards of beauty are largely assumed in polite converation.

...are very helpful for writers who want to eschew the 'show-don't-tell' style mentioned, but I also think there's no need to eschew it. That style allows more than enough freedom to do this naturally.

How to do it, without departing from a normal, modern style of narrative

Most non-word-people haven't heard of free indirect speech, but all modern readers intuitively understand it. That means you can give us the point-of-view character's internal monologue as part of the narrative. For example:

Jack stared at the door. What was behind it? Could Sarah still be alive? He wiped a dramatic bead of sweat from his brow.

It's perfectly fine in this style to give your character's thoughts about something, as long as those thoughts feel like a natural part of the character's internal monologue at that time. You can use this to show your character is attracted to a person, the same way you could show your character is attracted to anything else.

Jack stared at the door. The craftsmanship was stunning. He moistened his lips. Mahogany. Viennese jambs. The studs were iron, smooth and plump. The varnish was thick, fresh, gleaming... he extended a hand to touch it, but stopped himself. To sully something so beautiful would be unthinkable.

The example is daft, of course, but hopefully you get the idea. If you let us live inside your point-of-view character's head, we can see what they're thinking about, what distracts them, what they fixate on.

Creepiness

Noticing someone's attractive features doesn't have to make them a creep — it's all about context. They could be...

Aware of the attractive person but trying not to stare
Shaking their head at an advert, say, where the attractive features of the picture are cartoonishly exaggerated
Ruefully recalling how somebody else fell for the charms of the attractive person
Tutting at how the attractive person was treated by others who are being creepy
Giving the attractive person direct compliments and attention which the person actually wants (let's not forget that between consenting adults it does occasionally happen!)

Closing blather

I sense (perhaps wrongly) that the person who kindly gave you the answer above is not a fan of the 'show-don't tell' principle. That's fine, of course. But I would caution that it's popular for a reason.

It engages the reader with your story better, because it more closely approximates the experience of being there for the story. The experience of reading the words 'Cole was angry' has only a distant connection to the experience of being confronted with an angry person. If instead you make me feel present as Cole punches the table, see him hyperventillate through his teeth, make me twitch when I'm flecked with his spittle — that more closely approximates the experience of being in the story, and that makes it more compelling.

I wouldn't be so quick to abandon 'show-don't-tell' style. Of course, maybe I'm just blinded by my slavish adherence to fashion ;)


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There are a lot of great answers here already, but I wanted to chime in with something that I felt was missing.

If you want to show (not tell, as alluded to earlier in the Conrad / Kipling discussion) that a culture has a different beauty standard, then that different standard should be represented in their cultural media.

You mention in your post what the standard of beauty is in the US -- how did you arrive at that conception of what the standard of beauty is? Are people constantly talking about what is beautiful to them? Or, more likely, are people who match up with the standard of beauty more represented in media than people who don't? Wouldn't this be the same in the society you're writing about?

Whatever means of cultural transmission the society you're thinking about uses, the standard of beauty will be represented in them. Paintings will feature people that meet the standard, professional or popular actors and dancers will exemplify the beauty standard, even bathroom signs might subtly reflect what that society expects people to look like.

Have fun with it -- try to notice what everyday things subtly (and not-so-subtly) reinforce the beauty standards you've grown up with, and try to think of what would be analogous to those reinforcements in the society you're writing about.

Overall, don't forget that while the characters in your story can represent and indicate the beauty standards of cultures, so can the objects.


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Skinny=beautiful is a recent western concept, most cultures still see fat as healthy, beautiful, lively, or desirable and skinny women as diseased, ugly, barren, and close to death. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

A good illustration of Fat as ugly or sexy is in the Soldier Son Trilogy by Robin Hobb.

N.B.
I admit that a large part of this was a rant, I skimmed your Q and I may have been unfair and over-reacted. Also, I just saw that you are a recent member, in Writer’s we tend to be nicer than in other SE sites and less-judgmental, particularly for new users, so mea culpa.

After rereading I saw that you that you mentioned other cultures standards, and that you used “for the most part”.

(because based on American’s rap culture, strategically placed, fat seems highly desirable, and having lived in the US I knew many people who though of fashion models as walking skeletons and preferred more rotund people. I guess I just didn’t like my interpretation of those “our standards”, and that “Hey guys” was the drop that pushed my buttons the wrong way.

Anyways, here are some beautiful descriptions, some of them about unconventional beauty

“She possessed a beauty much different from Daisy, more like a wildflower in the unspoiled earth than a prize-winning rose in a formal garden.” ― Gary Inbinder, The Flower to the Painter

I also found a mention of bigger girl lit featuring fat protagonists like in in Good in Bed, Conversations with the Fat Girl, The Way It Is, and Alternative Beauty.

Since it is a foreign culture, a fantasy culture I assume, readers should not expect western cultural standards; so any descriptions you make should be taken at face value, they would be a natural part of that society and not "weird" in any way.

You can just use classical descriptions of beauty and substitute what is beautiful to that person and expend it with sexy fat terms. Something like: the heavenly softness of her ample thighs, the inviting curve of her round belly, the glow of her moon face, her lustrous thick arm, voluptuous curves, full-figured majesty, plump over-ripe breasts, motherly/womanly form, imposing body, big as a mountain; filled with honey-dew, shapely as a fathered pillow, chubby , curvaceous body, comfortable folds, full lips, prominent bottom, generous features, land of plenty, country of milk and honey, mountain of beauty, abundant gifts, liberal size, gorgeous ampleness, stunning presence, picturesque curvature, pleasing softness, superb figure, pleasing roundness, encompassing arms, spherical perfection, substantial form, profuse gifts, wide comforting chest, portly padding, stout flawlessness, striking splendor, grand fruitfulness, vast bosom, considerable attributes, bursting cleavage , shapely body, munificent shape.....

You could also build the differences progressively introducing the alternative standards of beauty and smoothly building up on it; this may be less jarring to readers unused to see things differently.

You wrote that you are afraid of loosing readers who could be weirded out. I think this relies more on the skill of the description that its subject. A good description can make literally anything seem beautiful. For instance, I used to dislike mushrooms, after reading Tolkien, I began craving to eat some raw, now I like them, and every time I eat one, I am transported back to middle-earth.

Jay, you argue

“But if the book is written in English, presumably the target audience is English-speaking countries, where for the most part the standard is "thin”

I am not sure about SE, but in similar sites user are up to 40% from India. The site is international and speaking English is no the same as sharing a mostly modern western cultural bias.

Here is the distribution based on an estimate on professional developers for SE. While modern Indians are influenced by western standards, traditionally Fat is a sign of health, welth and beauty. Read Indian women taking dangerous 'fat pills' to GAIN weight and emulate curvy Bollywood stars“

“Read “ it has never been considered attractive to be thin in India” , yes it is changing, but still, there are countries were girls try their damnest to be fat; read about forcefeeding or west Africa , or fat is beautiful, or Top 10 Countries Celebrating Female Obesity


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There are at least three ways to do this:

Explain it in narration. This could be direct and blunt, like, "In this culture, unlike our own, to be considered beautiful a woman had to be a little plump." I suspect it would work better if done a little more subtly, like, "Fwacnia was considered very beautiful and had many men chasing after her. In our culture she might be considered overweight, but by Ruritanian standards she was just about perfect."
Have the characters discuss their standards of beauty. "'You know,' Rothnar said, 'I really like a woman with a little meat on her.' 'Yes,' Bragniss agreed, 'Skinny women just look too unhealthy to me.'" This has the danger of making the men involved seem overly ... objectifying? judgmental? I'm sure it can work if done well. There's also the problem that it can fall into the "as you know dialog" trap: characters sitting around telling each other things that they all know, not to inform each other, but to inform the reader who they are not supposed to know exists. Personally it always throws me off when characters start telling each other, "As you know, your father owns a shoe store", or "As you know, since the Martians invaded Earth two years ago we have been living under their domination." Why would people tell each other things that they all know?
Have a character from another culture discuss standards of beauty with the locals. This should have less of the "sexist jerk" problem, as there's then good reason for all involved to view it as an interesting philosophical discussion. Toss in a few sentences of speculation about how different standards came to be and it could be made to sound not weird at all.

Trying to do this with a pure "show don't tell" approach seems to me to be very difficult. Yes, you could say in chapter 1 that Sally weights 180 pounds, and then in chapter 3 talk about Sally winning a beauty contest. But without some explanation, that's likely to just be confusing. An American reader might well be forgiven for wondering, "Did she lose weight? Is there something about how she carries herself that makes men think she's beautiful despite her weight? Did she win the contest because it's not really about physical beauty at all but that the judges were impressed with her grace or musical talent or something?" Etc. I'd think you'd have to include at least a sentence or two explaining the different standard somewhere.


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Does the story you're writing center around this idea of the concept of what is beautiful being different from what the current Western standard of beauty is? Or is this just window dressing and world building?

If it's just background for the story, then treat it that way. Mention it casually, and incorporate it in as you would hover car or faster than light travel. It's there, and it belongs as naturally as trees belong in a forest and glass belongs in high rise buildings. Say the girl is beautiful and has deliciously chubby fingers, or whatever, and leave it at that.

It doesn't have to be a big deal. It's a given - this is what people think in the culture of your story.

And the idea that you're going to lose readers just because of some small element of world building is nuts. You might lose readers if your plot has holes in it, or if your writing is poor, but not for something like this.


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The most natural way to do this is just to have characters from the culture, in the story, comment on the traits of someone they find beautiful. People often do this in real life, so it shouldn't be too hard to do this subtly.

If you really want the culture to feel fully realized, however, you might think about the entire range of differences that surround the different beauty standard. I would imagine a culture that celebrates thinness as being more ascetic and goal focused, and one that celebrates a heavier body type as being more sensual and pleasure focused. Compare these two real life quotes from different sub-cultures. "I hate her, she's so skinny!" (one woman envious of another in a thin-oriented culture). "Man, she thick as hell!" (a man boasting to a friend about the attractive heft of a woman in a buxom-oriented culture).

I believe thin-orientation is more common in the societies where food is plentiful and obesity is common, heavy-orientation is more common in places where food is scarce, something you might want to consider. You also want to think about about perjorative terms being reversed. For instance, your culture wouldn't use the term "overweight" because that implies being heavier is wrong. Conversely, they might say "scrawny" instead of "skinny." The subgenre of African-American romance novels is a good place to find fiction from a sub-culture with a tendency to be oriented towards heavier body types. Alexander McCall Smith's well-known Number 1 Ladies' Detective Agency series, set in Botswana, might be another good place to look.


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So if you want to create a culture in which overweight bodies are perceived as beautiful, you really don't have to be too subtle, because no matter how subtle or unsubtle you are, only the readers that share that ideal will be attracted by that book, while all others will find it uninteresting or irritating.

While the post I quote has many valid points I am not sure that the passage above works for each and every scenario. The subtlety of your depiction of the said cultural standard depends largely on how important it is for your story.

If your world being full of fat beautiful women is one of the many aspects of the culture you are building, you can just brush upon that here and there, describing different characters--through the narrator's or other character's perception--and using positive wording to convey the person's reaction to the certain features, like 'smooth curves of her ample body', 'magnificent breasts', etc., and let the reader's imagination fill in the blanks without much risk of irritating or distancing them.

However, if your main character struggles with the fact that she is way too thin and considers herself ugly because of that and her internal conflict is what drives your story, then, by all means, go full throttle. You still may consider employing a targeted mixture of positive and negative epithets when she enviously measures herself up against her peers, who are beautiful, and 'my elbows are bony', 'oh, I have a gap between my thighs--it is repulsive', etc.

What I am trying to say is that for as long as you are not trying to blantly expose your reader to the rather alien to our culture idea that 'flapping folds of fat' are a pinnacle of physical attractiveness, you might have a better chance to reliably suspend disbelief.


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One way to go about this would be to have the narrator and/or another character describe or comment on the character's looks in a positive way. If it's important to you to contrast this culture's standards of beauty with those in the U.S., I think that's best done through the words of a character.

I think you can also play around with emotional and psychological cues. I'm reading a Jane Smiley novel right now in which one of the most physically attractive characters is a narcissist and a disengaged parent, and another character is described as plain but is at the emotional center of many of the relationships in the book because she is warm and funny and empathetic. Your narrator can filter and shape what your readers know and think about your characters.


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